In an interview with Ukrainian Pravda, Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk the head of the UGCC openly spoke about the faith and the situation in Ukraine. He also spoke about calling Pope Francis in the first weeks of a full-scale war, and warned society against the “spirit of dictatorship”. What follows are excerpts from that interview.
There is a lot of pain around us: Mariupol, Wart, Bucha, Irpin, Izyum, Dnieper, etc – we can further list the destroyed cities and villages of our country for a long time. Why does God allow this horror?
– We don’t know. We do not understand the end of all God’s broad plan.
Obviously, because of pain we learn, pain transforms us and makes us different.
We cannot justify inflicting pain, but we must learn to experience this pain properly. There is no person who has lived his life without ever being in pain.
But the poor man is the one who lives his life, fleeing from pain and hardship. Because the ability to experience pain makes us unbreakable.
Sometimes we cannot change circumstances and we cannot avoid pain. But what can we do? We can transform our attitude – to both our pain and the circumstances in which we live.
Forming a relationship with what hurts us is a search for meaning. Your question is a matter of finding meaning: for what?
If my suffering matters, then I realize that it was a gift.
We hear the following words in the Gospel: “He who endures to the end will be saved”.
From the beginning of the war, when the pain was only growing, people turned to the church for help to find the meaning of their pain. And when a person, whether military or civilian or even a statesman, saw that there was some higher value to be tolerated, then that pain became a source of salvation.
In such circumstances, a very special role and mission of the church appears. I remember the days of the painful siege of Kyiv, I visited the Kyiv city head Vitaly Klitschko.
I wanted to ask how many people in Kyiv are left, and what are the most urgent needs. And we talked about different things, rather of such a humanitarian nature. Then he tells me, “You know, more than bread and clothes, we need words of hope”. And except for the church, except for God’s word, no one can give that hope. In the Gospel of Christ, we see life-giving values that are worth living for.
The topic of pain is very complex, and each person lives it uniquely. So we need to be around.
Here I remember many such circumstances when you can do nothing to a person, but you can share his pain without even saying anything.
We do not know everything and do not understand. Do not take responsibility to explain everything, to rationalize everything. Because war – is nonsense that cannot be clearly explained rationally. But we can change our attitude to the circumstances in which we find ourselves and overcome them.
How do Ukrainians now treat Russians correctly from a Christian point of view?
– When we hear the word “Russians” in Ukraine today, footage of mass torture and destroyed towns and villages appear before our eyes. Therefore, purely humanly today, Ukrainians feel that the Russians – are strangers and murderers who came to take away from us all who we are and what we have.
We cannot compromise with evil. And it’s humanly hard for us to see people in those killers. We see that all that is launching such a deadly attack on Ukraine today – are the consequences of the diseases of post-Soviet society, which in Russia, instead of recovering from the Soviet Union, began to rot.
I remember the words of Eldar Ryazanov, who said: “We have a terrible pain, a dolgo is rotting”.
On the other hand, in Christian terms, we want to give everyone a chance to repent. And now in this moment, it is very difficult.
Anger, especially when we see all crimes – is a natural human instinct. If all the crimes we see are not fierce, it would mean that we are complicit in evil. That is, in one way or another, we tolerate and praise them.
But anger needs transformation and framing. In the Christian sense, righteous anger is material for the virtue of courage. We need courage today.
Courage to stand, courage to win. For if anger is not transformed into courage, it can become destructive.
It is said that fear – is a bad advisor. Similarly, anger can be a bad advisor. Therefore, Christian ascetic practice shows that we can truly turn anger into courage and resilience.
This righteous anger can become a force. A force that can win.
Who in the Vatican today informs Pope Francis about the war in Ukraine?
– I don’t have the answer to this question until the end and I can’t say what channels of information come to him. But knowing the Pope personally, I will say that he does not like to be tied to any of the channels. He, as a good Jesuit, who lives by this rule: we consulted, and I decided.
That is, he listens to many, but in the end, makes his own decisions or forms his vision.
When it comes to socio-political circumstances or the issue of military circumstances, it is not wrong here. He may be wrong. Therefore, it is very important to communicate.
Since the beginning of the full-scale war, I have personally communicated with him very intensely.
Is the Russian ambassador to the Vatican having a big influence on the Pope? Is there a pro-Russian lobby in the Vatican in general?
– I think there is. Why? Because Russia has developed its diplomatic relations with the Vatican very intensively.
Russia in general has invested heavily in promoting its culture in Italy, including the Vatican. Since the war in Donbass began, Russia has “bombed” the Vatican with various initiatives, including cultural ones.
Therefore, I think that the Ukrainian state must intensify high-quality diplomacy at this level so that we too can be actively represented there.
You saw the Pope in November. Did the Pope tell about his meeting with the Head of the Main Intelligence Directorate Kirill Budanov?
– There was no talk of the Pope’s meeting with Budanov. I didn’t want to ask because it wouldn’t be very ethical.
–What then is the Pope’s participation in the exchange of prisoners?
– Indeed, the Pope is very intensely involved in all possible channels to release Ukrainian prisoners. Personally, at least once a month I submit a list of documents to those who are prisoners of war because when visiting our communities, I constantly hear: “Help”.
I tell people, “Okay, give me specific information”. And immediately I try to hand it over to the Pope. Even during the last meeting, I handed over another folder with documents. And I know things are moving.
What tools does the Vatican have? These are diplomatic channels. How successful are they today? This is a question mark.
We see that Russia despises diplomacy. Sometimes for them, diplomacy – is like a servant to serve forward-made military-political decisions.
Therefore, how effective today is the diplomatic road for any settlement of this confrontation, it is difficult to answer. But the fact that indeed all possible efforts are being made by the apostolic capital, I can testify for it personally.
We are already beginning to see many problems that we will have to solve after the victory. Lots of wounds, experiences, and hatred. What do you see as the biggest challenges to Ukrainian society after the victory?
– To see everything, you have to wait for victory. But what is already visible first – are the wounds we mentioned. They will make themselves known. And the signs of a broken society will be very different. There will be a high level of aggression and conflict.
That is why today it is necessary for all those who work with people, I would say, to be doubly wise, so as not to offend anyone, not to provoke anyone. In fact, today it is not easy for our priests at that stage.
We see that domestic violence is rampant. And this is also a challenge, especially for the church.
I see another important problem that can’t help but worry, but which may not be so acute today. I have a feeling that society is starting to get tired of democracy.
I’m talking about democracy and I wanted to ask you…
– There is a risk that we are beginning to be impressed by the spectre of dictatorship in Ukraine. It is very dangerous.
All the years of Ukraine’s independence, our church has brought citizens to mature responsibility. Personal responsibility for society.
We see that to some extent the fruit of such an upbringing was the Orange Revolution, the Revolution of Dignity.
Society wanted to control power. Society has become very demanding of power and did not want to repeat the mistakes of previous revolutions.
Here, for example, I remember the Maidan of 2013-2014. There was no only visible political leader to whom to hang responsibility for the state. It was interesting unlike those slogans of 2004, remember? Yushchenko! Yushchenko!
But, unfortunately, some today are beginning to feel that democracy is not giving the right level of security to the end. That democracy is weak in responding to challenges.
On the other hand, there is fatigue that forces someone else to be held accountable. Here I have chosen you, and now you give yourself advice – I will be on the side, I will see what will happen to you. Once again: this is a very great danger.
Because we all understand that today the world supports Ukraine precisely because we want to be a free, democratic state. The world supports democracy in Ukraine, to the advantage of the totalitarian regime of the northern neighbour.
We must not turn into an internal copy of who is attacking us. Psychologists will be right because they testify to cases where the victim begins to be like his abuser.
That is why I urge everyone to remember and understand that the war in Ukraine – is a war for democracy and values.
We all need a fair trial as a separate branch of government. We all need real parliamentarism.
We will need a genuine political culture in Ukraine that provides some counterbalances.
That is why the challenges of true democracy, a transparent and open society in Ukraine after the war will be very difficult.
Finally: is it a sin to desire death?
– Yes, sin. Because when I wish death for another, I die myself. This is a very delicate thing during the war.
Sometimes I have to stop the aggressor, even at the cost of his own death. Then I must choose life for my people, my Motherland, my people.
– Is it a sin to want Putin to die?
– (Pause and starts laughing) Oh, you will have to pray for repentance for him.
- Raju Hasmukh with files from Ukrainian Pravda
